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Poster: BataviaSparky Date: Jun 7, 2010 9:38pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: drugs and the dead

Just finished reading "Dark Star", a biography of Garcia told via quotes and anecdotes from people around the scene. Not a terrible read. My mother-in-law picked it up and read it over a few days on a visit a few years ago. Her comment was something to the effect that 'Garcia sure did do a lot of drugs', which is, of course, true.

For you fellow forumites - I know someone, who isn't me (SWIM), who did his share of weed and LSD, (okay, probably more than his share, depending on what his share was). I always wonder if SWIM would have even ever liked the Dead if he hadn't boosted his senses with THC and LSD.

He no longer partakes of the L, (sometimes he wishes he could but, sadly, he doesn't know anyone like he used to, making availability at zero. If he ever did come across any, he doubts it would be real. SWIM supposes if he ever bumped into any of his connected old friends and they offered any, he'd be tempted, but it ain't likely).

SWIM still enjoys his Grateful Dead and regularly dreams of the old days at Alpine and such, not a care in the world, which was nothing but a beautiful place soaked with Grateful Dead music, Jerry's lovely guitar, and fine, fresh, family doses.
Hey, sometimes it's fun to re-live the days in his head, so says SWIM.

I ask you all, my fellow forumites, many of whom SWIM likely brushed sweaty bodies against as he twirled and danced his way across the USA in search of the sound,

Would you or Someone Who isn't you (SWIY), or do you think, you would have the same zeal and love of the music of the Grateful Dead if you or SWIY had never used any mind altering substances?
SWIM cannot honestly answer the question in his own mind, his life would have been a lot different without that first (and subsequent hundreds of) dose(s).
He knows he totally gets it now, he knows lots of folks who do and even more who do not 'get it' when it comes to the Dead. He can't really recall any that do get it that were completely sober. Almost all of them tried LSD at least a few times, most way more than a few.

The age old question:

DO YOU HAVE TO BE ON DRUGS TO LIKE THE GRATEFUL DEAD?

Not always, but have at least dabbled?

What are your thoughts?

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Poster: Headphone Date: Jun 9, 2010 9:55pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

I got into the Dead in 1971. I tried a bit of drugs, and quit them after a couple years, finding they dulled my subtle perceptions of music and other good things.

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Jun 8, 2010 7:43am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

I never used any mind-altering substances when i first heard tapes of shows, when I went to shows or in the last 5 years when i reconnected to the music. I had a few beers before the shows but thats about it. Now much of my listening is in the car, at work. walking the dogs or doing work around the house (6-23-74 made the yard work a pleasure on saturday!!). I think i have sufficiently connected to the music but obviously can't comment one whether i could have become "more" connected if I had partaken in the use of psychedelics, etc.

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Poster: user unknown Date: Jun 8, 2010 8:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

did drugs...don't now(except a little alcohol now and then)

listened to and enjoyed Grateful Dead through it all

drugs necessary..NO
drugs helpful in appreciating the tunes ..no
drugs fun..some of them
drugs worth the hassle..few of them

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Jun 8, 2010 10:01am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Kinda sums it up.

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Poster: user unknown Date: Jun 8, 2010 4:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Well, I am a man of few words. You believe that, right? If so, I've got the lovely bridge for sale in Brooklyn. I'll let you have it wholesale.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jun 8, 2010 4:10pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

for a buck and a quarter?

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Poster: user unknown Date: Jun 8, 2010 4:55pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Don't think so. I ain't Pigpen and you gotta factor inflation into this thing, you understand.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jun 8, 2010 5:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

understood. it's copacetic.

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Poster: ducats Date: Jun 8, 2010 4:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

what music?

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Jun 8, 2010 7:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

It seems that the majority of Heads (past and present) that I know first truly fell in love with the band while altered. This includes me. Thing is that I never really had heard them before the altered listening ocurred, so I cannot really say one way or the other if I would have had the same "awakening" if I were completely sober. Now, however, my enjoyment of the band is almost entirely while sober. Being of clear head I find myself hearing new details within the music that had escaped my foggy moutain breakdown condition before. I believe that being un-altered has allowed me, for example, to gain a new appreciation for the absolute mastery displayed by Billy in the Mickey-Free period. The substances perhaps gave me a greater appreciation of the overpowering emotional impact of a live show, but being of sound mind and body has enlightened me to just how technically magnificent this band was/is. While bugging, there would have been no way that I could have focused on one player like I can now.

Altered = Picasso
Straigt = Michaelangelo

One is not necessarily better than the other; both are masterpieces in their own right, perhaps just appealing to slightly different parts of the brain.

That's just me, of course.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Jun 8, 2010 9:41am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Interesting... I never really appreciated Picasso much -- altered or unaltered.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Jun 8, 2010 9:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Just speaking from personal experience. Different strokes (RIP Gary Coleman) for diffent folks.

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Jun 8, 2010 10:22am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Bigger than a drive-in movie...oooh weee!

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jun 8, 2010 10:29am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

one of the more painful lines in Greatful Dead lyrical history

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Jun 8, 2010 10:36am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

No amount of drugs could make that palatable.

Same goes for "Street cats making love."

Might be a good thread: Worst Lyrics, could open it up to any band, just to be fair.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jun 8, 2010 10:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

My nomination goes to Nick Cave:

I don't believe in an interventionist God
But I know, darling, that you do
But if I did I would kneel down and ask Him
Not to intervene when it came to you

You'll go a long way to find lyrics more pifflingly pretentious than the above.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jun 8, 2010 6:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Interventional God all the way -- total subatomic control. The quantum soup and effects (consensus reality) is not the real.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jun 9, 2010 12:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Oh spare me. Please.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jun 9, 2010 10:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

As you like it.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jun 9, 2010 11:03am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Much Ado About Not(h)ing

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Jun 9, 2010 11:04am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

My son was just in that . He played Leonato . Kids theater , but fun

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jun 9, 2010 11:24am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

i'll bet it was fun!! one of my favorite shakespearean comedies.

super idea for a kid's theatre - make a slow introduction to some GREAT literature.

i hope he enjoyed the experience!!

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Jun 9, 2010 2:59pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

21 kids , ages 5 -15 , all home-schooled . The directors daughter is moving on next year and my son wants to take her place writing the abridgement , and all the other prep. work . He's already campaigning for the Tempast . He wants to play Prospero .

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jun 9, 2010 3:22pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead -love kids' theatre!

They do the classics!

http://tinyurl.com/yhyd9zc

Fudge you Tony.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Jun 9, 2010 3:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead -love kids' theatre!

Ohh Too Much . 2 of my sons fellow thespians are on Youtube as ,
The Basement Bards Shakespeare

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jun 9, 2010 6:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

what about Titus Andronicus or Cymbeline?? perfectly accessible for that age group!!


j/k - that is great!! kudos to your boy for his interest and desire!!!

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jun 8, 2010 10:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

It's all in the delivery with Nick. Bad Seeds are one of the greatest live bands - with and without Mick Harvey and Blixa. You have to accept his over the top goth lounge act (or not).

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jun 8, 2010 11:13am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Oh I'm not saying it's all bad (seeds) with Nick Cave, but in all honesty the first time I heard that I just fell about laughing.

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Jun 8, 2010 10:54am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

"Number 47 said to Number 3, you're the cutest jailbird that I ever did see."

Worse than the Shawshank Redemption imo.

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Jun 8, 2010 11:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

C'mon, there's no need to be homophobic. Prison love is a speacial thing. Seems very few people bothered to really check those lyrics, unless co-ed jails are were big back then.

Kind of like "Couple more shots of whiskey, women round here start looking good" always getting a big response from the crowd. Yes, folks, your female residents are so heinous that severe intoxication is required to make them remotely approachable.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Jun 8, 2010 12:25pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Yeah that makes me wince. Little Schoolgirl is a little uncomfy, too.

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Poster: DeadRed1971 Date: Jun 8, 2010 5:53pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Anybody ever notice the Good Morning Little Schoolgirl quip in Full Metal Jacket to the Vietnamese hooker?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6Ep1nmwWU0

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jun 8, 2010 11:29am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Ok - since BD spoke up for Nick Cave here's another suggestion. Surely no one will defend these sanctimonious, narcissistic assholes...

I like the sound of my own voice
I didn’t give anyone else a choice
An intellectual tortoise
Racing with your bullet train

Fairly self-referential lyrics I'd have thought.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jun 8, 2010 11:20am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

i was listening to some John Hiatt recently, and though there are some songs of his i like, there are too many lyrical sequences that made me hit the pause button and say "really?? REALLY JOHN?????"

UGH

have the same trouble with Richard Thompson. It is like the two of them attended the same course: Bad Poetry, Lame Cliche's, and You 101

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jun 8, 2010 11:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

OK. Point me to some of Richard's problems; if the wordsmith won't leap to his defense, I will (although there may well be some that are beyond any straight faced attempt to defend).

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jun 8, 2010 7:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

i cant point specifically now - i deleted all the songs i had after not being able to get through more than a dozen.

i suppose it didnt help much that his voice is as flat as a possum run over by a semi.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jun 8, 2010 8:08pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

"i suppose it didnt help much that his voice is as flat as a possum run over by a semi."
HA!

Yea, he's no Neil (who harmonizes with himself when he warbles - and i love it).

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jun 8, 2010 8:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

gotta say, i really tried to give RT a chance. for whatever reason, i just don't get him. purely subjective. i simply just cannot handle a relatively consistently flat singing voice (as opposed to Vedder, who can strike the occasional flat note, but stays on key more often than not) -

not being able to carry a tune just twists the musical portion of my brain into areas that cause the "tilt" light to go on. Neil's may be quite strange, but the dude can carry a tune.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jun 8, 2010 12:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Apologies - I was too busy stir-frying prawns to do much defensive leaping, but I knew one of us was going to pitch in on RT's behalf.

Rather like your point re Cave, with RT it's mostly in the delivery and the marriage of words and music (but honestly how many performers couldn't you say that of?). It's hard to defend

Well my head was beating like a song by the Clash
It was writing cheques that my body couldn't cash

as great poetry but it works pretty well in context.

Likewise

Says James, in my opinion, there's nothing in this world
Beats a 52 Vincent and a red headed girl
Now Nortons and Indians and Greeveses won't do
They don't have a soul like a Vincent 52
He reached for her hand and he slipped her the keys
He said I've got no further use for these
I see angels on Ariels in leather and chrome
Swooping down from heaven to carry me home
And he gave her one last kiss and died
And he gave her his Vincent to ride

might not win the college poetry contest - but married to the music it is undeniably magnificent.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jun 8, 2010 12:34pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

A song by the Clash? Saw Lords of Dogtown last night in which Social Distortion does great cover of this tune during closing credits:

Now every cheap hood strikes a bargain with the world,
Ends up making payments on a sofa or a girl.
Love 'n hate tattooed across the knuckles of his hands,
Hands that slap his kids around, 'cause they don't understand how,

Death or glory, becomes just another story.
Death or glory, becomes just another story.

'n every gimmick hungry yob digging gold from rock 'n roll,
Grabs the mike to tell us he'll die before he's sold,
But I believe in this and it's been tested by research,
He who fucks nuns will later join the church.

Death or glory, becomes just another story.
Death or glory, becomes just another story

Now I'm off to defend Robert Plant's singing about squeezing lemons til the juice runs down his leg...

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jun 8, 2010 12:46pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Hey, hey, mama, said the way you move, gonna make you sweat, gonna make you groove.
Oh, oh, child, way you shake that thing, gonna make you burn, gonna make you sting.
Hey, hey, baby, when you walk that way, watch your honey drip, can't keep away.

Raunchy? Who said raunchy?


Ok - raising the tone with some of my favourite Strummer words:

Midnight to six man
For the first time from Jamaica
Dillinger and Leroy Smart
Delroy Wilson, your cool operator

Ken Boothe for UK pop reggae
With backing bands sound systems
And if they've got anything to say
There's many black ears here to listen

But it was Four Tops all night with encores from stage right
Charging from the bass knives to the treble
But onstage they ain't got no roots rock rebel
Onstage they ain't got no...roots rock rebel

Dress back jump back this is a bluebeat attack
'Cos it won't get you anywhere
Fooling with your guns
The British Army is waiting out there
An' it weighs fifteen hundred tons

White youth, black youth
Better find another solution
Why not phone up Robin Hood
And ask him for some wealth distribution

Punk rockers in the UK
They won't notice anyway
They're all too busy fighting
For a good place under the lighting

The new groups are not concerned
With what there is to be learned
They got Burton suits, ha you think it's funny
Turning rebellion into money

All over people changing their votes
Along with their overcoats
If Adolf Hitler flew in today
They'd send a limousine anyway

I'm the all night drug-prowling wolf
Who looks so sick in the sun
I'm the white man in the Palais
Just lookin' for fun

I'm only
Looking for fun

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jun 8, 2010 4:03pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead - or the muse jumped ship?

Evangeline
Lyrics: Robert Hunter
Music: [7 Walkers]

One of the new songs with Robert Hunter lyrics played by 7 Walkers featuring Bill Kreutzmann and Papa Mali.

Creeping down the Bayou
Hard days and night
Leaving through the willow
Shining big and bright

Haunted witches' moon
Low on the horizon
Couldn't be a better time
To brew a lover's potion

West [?]
I met Evangeline
She was born in [Lakarus]
But raised in Sabine

I can't live without her
Don't even want to try
If she won't be my lover
I might as well die

She can make the rain cloud
Open up and pour
She can make the lightning flash
And make the thunder roar

Evangeline, you're everything
A man like me could need
I was born to love her
In thought and word and deed

She's got a mystic streak
Knows what is to come
She can stop the traffic
By sticking out her thumb

She can make my heart beat
As fast as any drum
Evangeline, Evangeline
Sweet as sugar plum

Magical positions
Of the planets and the stars
Clear to her as music
Written down in bars

Clear to her as street signs
Posted in the trees
Along the ghostly avenues
The river and the breeze

She can make the rain cloud
Open up and pour
She can make the lightning flash
And make the thunder roar

Evangeline, you're everything
A man like me could need
I was born to love her
In thought and word and deed

Welcome to my heart
Welcome to my soul
You're the kind of woman
Make a man bold

You're the kind of mama
Men grow up a boy
Changes these tears of sorrow
Into shining tears of joy

I got a little secret
To whisper in your ear
Come a little closer
So no one else can hear

I was born to love you
In rare and different ways
Going to make you happy
For the rest of my days

You can make the rain cloud
Open up and pour
You can make the lightning flash
And make the thunder roar

Evangeline, you're everything
A man like me could need
I was born to love you
Yes I was indeed

I was born to love you
Yes I was indeed
I was born to love you
You're everything I need

Recordings
Date Album Recorded By
2010 Seven Walkers Seven Walkers

looked it up b/c listening to this and was introduced as newly penned Hunter tune:
http://www.archive.org/details/PapaMali2010-04-09.flac16

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Poster: deadpolitics Date: Jun 8, 2010 7:42pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

"bigger than a drive-in movie..."

Always thought it was a reference to the Wall of Sound. Come to think of it, that idea came to me as my roommate and I were enjoying DP19 highly dosed...

Anyway, while comparing a GD show to going to a drive-in movie may while away the time quite pleasantly, it sure doesn't make for a great song hook.

This post was modified by deadpolitics on 2010-06-09 02:42:57

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jun 8, 2010 7:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

never considered those lyrics in that manner. very interesting! (still bad, but maybe they do mean something)

:)

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Jun 8, 2010 8:18am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

The Wharf Rats (a group of sober Deadheads who appeared regularly at shows to help and support each other to keep from partaking--many of them alcoholics or addicts trying hard to kick but still loving the music), were proof positive to me that chemical enhancement was NOT necessary to enjoy the Dead.

I used to watch the 'rats' when I got bored during space/drums and was amazed by how they twirled and swayed and dug it all while SWIM was often well-tweaked and not nearly as capable of yielding to the "charms" of those (literally, to me) wasted sections of shows.

Another briefer, perhaps more accurate way of addressing the drugs and Dead issue is: You don't HAVE to be on drugs to enjoy the Grateful Dead...but it couldn't hurt ;-)

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Jun 8, 2010 8:27am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

One of my favorite shows in Albany (Dozin' At The Knick) was spend entirely sober, not even a puff. Thanks to being seated seperate from my friends and next to a couple of drunk frat boys, I found myself in the hallways with the Twirlers. For the entire show I danced around the building with my new friends and still smile about it today. Also made the drive back a whole lot easier.

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Jun 8, 2010 1:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Those where some good times SDH - opening the Knick . I mean two drunk frat boys or all those beautiful hippy chicky -chicks twirling about . Dancing makes everything better at a show .

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Jun 8, 2010 2:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Dancing chicks: Yes

Drunk Frat Boys bellowing "I need more Acid!!!": NO

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Poster: grendelschoice Date: Jun 8, 2010 8:34am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

"Also made the drive back a whole lot easier."


Amen to that!

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Poster: barongsong Date: Jun 9, 2010 9:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Nicely said!!!

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Jun 8, 2010 7:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead



Absolutely not. Just my opinion here but I like the Dead, I got into the Dead, I connected with the Dead, I still like the Dead. And I managed all of that without the "aid" of pharmacueticals - Molson Golden Ale notwithstanding. I'm not criticizing those who did, it never had any appeal for me and I never did anything besides the aforementioned Molson. Since then, I have added single malts to the list of acceptable imbibagery.

At the risk of starting a pissing contest, it seems to me that those who say that you have to have been dosed to 'enjoy' or 'connect' or whatever are saying that as if doing so was some kind of rite of passage or secret handshake or initiation into "the club".

Now I would agree that being dosed probably would have taken some of the edge off Donna's shrieking and caterwauling, but then again, from my limited understanding of chemical alteration, it seems that the risk of enhancing the shrieks and caterwauls would be enough to have kept people from doing so. Apparently not.

Just my opinion folks.....

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Jun 8, 2010 8:11am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

If my first live show had involved

A: PITB
B: Donna
C: Chemicals

Things probably would have turned out mighty different. That fear-inducing caterwauling could have caused me to curl up in the fetal position muttering something about "Please stop doing that to those cats. What did they ever do to you?". I have nothing but the fullest respect to those who were able to withstand that onslaught of sonic armageddon and come out relatively unscathed.

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Poster: gratefuldiver Date: Jun 9, 2010 4:04am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Congratulations to both of you for getting your Donna-bashing into a post that has nothing to do with your hatred towards her. Drugs or not, I'd put up with someone way more off-key than Donna ever was to get more than 7 years with Keith.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jun 9, 2010 7:07am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

"I'd put up with someone way more off-key than Donna ever was to get more than 7 years with Keith. "

really??? keith was good, but not THAT good. pretty much an average keyboardist. whether you like brent or not, he was a more accomplished player and was a great backup singer.

(i will grant you the songs he wrote left a bit to be desired)

p.s. this is not donna or keith bashing

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jun 9, 2010 7:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

I know what the guy means, in that the Godchaux Dead were, are and will remain the incarnation of the band that I most consistently enjoy. Which of course is not to say that they would have stayed that way had Godchaux stayed on keys into the eighties. In fact, given other pressures I'd say it was an odds on certainty that they'd have started going downhill fast.

Now I know that people have argued for Mydland's revitalising influence at the start of the decade - that it was a good thing Godchaux got kicked out and he came onboard - and maybe that's true and maybe it's not - I'm inclined to think that probably nothing was going to halt Garcia's decline by then.

Maybe we can argue the point as to whether or not Mydland was more talented than Godchaux. More technically proficient maybe but that isn't quite the same thing - his phrasing and voicing did very little for me. Oh and speaking of voicing, every time he opened his mouth to sing it set my teeth on edge.

I'm just saying. Not starting anything.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jun 9, 2010 7:39am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

i enjoy the "Keith Era" more also. Keith's playing just never did all that much for me. Not that he was bad by any stretch. His keys were just a bit too subdued for me. Jazzier? yes. but usually in jazz style, the keys are more prevalent if they are a part of the particular band. He often seemed more "absent" than I would have liked. Certainly not always the case - but too often for my liking. He seemed to be more interested in "background layering" than playing up and out front. (again, just a generalization, not the rule)

My comment had nothing to do with Garcia's decline - was simply focusing on that one aspect of their music - keyboards.

and, I loved Brent's voice when used in background and as a counter to bob and/or jerry. Obviously, that is simply preference.


p.s. mind your own business. i wasnt talking to you!!

;-P

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Jun 9, 2010 12:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

I know i am jumping in late on this. Thought i might add that Keith being in the background seems to be more of an issue post-break. '72-74 he plays counter to Jerry quite a bit, while post-break he does seem to be content adding the layers you speak of and by '78 he does seem to disappear at times. Odd thing is that this is not an issue with the post-break JGB line up where he is definitely involved. I guess there was a little more space for him to operate, not competing with a second drummer and a second guitar player who picks up the slide.

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jun 9, 2010 12:31pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

i have not thought about the JGB angle of which you speak. I'm gonna have to give a little of that a listen! been quite some time since i can recall listening to Keith/JGB (unless a random tune came up on my ipod while in shuffle mode)

thanks for that very interesting insight!

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Poster: SomeDarkHollow Date: Jun 9, 2010 12:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Careful on the "jumping in" thing. Our favorite Scotsman is quite touchy in that regards (see yesterday's admonishment for my un-solicited intrusion).

Or is it just me?
OK, don't answer that...dumb question.

But, to the point at hand, I agree that Keith's presence certainly seemed to fade towards the end. He still had his moments to be sure, but as a regular contributor he became more of a tasteful wallpaper in a room that the rest of the boys had put together; providing background color (a color that increasingly moved towards a nondescript beige-like hue) that helped bring it together.

As for Donna, she would be the faulty smoke detector that would go off without provocation at the worst times.

But, I still say I'm not a Donna-Hater, just someone who wishes she would have toned it down a touch and lived within her boundaries.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jun 9, 2010 1:40pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

I'd say that the reason for Godchaux's falling out of the Grateful Dead picture frame come 78 could be summed up under the heading of this thread.

As to why he and Garcia seemed happier in the JGB (and Garcia demonstrably continued to be so post-Godchaux) I can only surmise having limited insight into drug psychology, but with Weir as Mr Clean and Lesh heading into alcoholism maybe the dragon chasers felt more comfortable and less pressured elsewhere.

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Poster: elbow1126 Date: Jun 9, 2010 1:42pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

No doubt that the drug use was the primary reason for the end of that era however I think Keith's slide into the background started before the dragon started breathing death into the band.

Regardless as I sit hear and listen to the Eyes from the 6-30-74 show that SDH mentioned earlier today in a thread somewhere above our heads, i have troubles believing anyone who hangs out in '74 would talk about Keith blending into the background.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jun 9, 2010 2:54pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Could be that Godchaux was simply being sidelined, his battles with depression making him unable to fight his corner in the face of the increasing factionalism among the other band members. And there's also the undeniable fact that as the 70s wore on the band were plain and simple running out of creative steam - post Blues for Allah it was a downhill slide as far as new material was concerned. Got to be demoralising when you realise that you're in danger of becoming your own covers band, endlessly trying to find ways of keeping old stuff new.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jun 9, 2010 7:50am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Yes - I know you weren't referencing Garcia, I was just thinking out loud really, musing on the fact that the Godchaux Dead were a spent force by then anyway and a few more years of Keith probably wouldn't have produced much more that was good.

But what do you care?

Bozo.

;-)

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jun 9, 2010 7:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

lol :)


and it is Mr. Bozo to you, sir!

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jun 9, 2010 8:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Yes, Mr Bozo

smoking-bozo.jpg

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jun 9, 2010 8:09am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Yes, Mr Bozo

a fair representation of me upon awakening this morning after just a few hours of sleep.

(place a cup of coffee in his hand and you would have a very accurate picture)

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jun 9, 2010 8:15am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Yes, Mr Bozo

As Mrs Wolf was heard to say: Some mornings I wake up grumpy - other days I let him sleep...

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jun 9, 2010 8:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Yes, Mr Bozo

oh, you clever little orkney vole you!

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Poster: TOOTMO Date: Jun 8, 2010 11:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

"Absolutely not. Just my opinion here but I like the Dead, I got into the Dead, I connected with the Dead, I still like the Dead. And I managed all of that without the "aid" of pharmacueticals -"

I'm glad to hear that, Mandojammer, because the thought of a sub-surface, ICBM button man perhaps experiencing flashbacks at an inconvenient, just... well, kinda makes me uncomfortable. Thank you for your unaltered service.

TOOTMO

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Poster: fireeagle Date: Jun 8, 2010 6:37am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

DO YOU HAVE TO BE ON DRUGS TO LIKE THE GRATEFUL DEAD?

hahahahahahahaha (ie LOL):))

excellent question indeede

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Poster: zeroenvy Date: Jun 8, 2010 6:01am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

drugs deffinately help connect you more with the music/band.

Do you NEED drugs to tell that the beginning of "chinacat" is some of the best coolest sounding rythym/lead work? No.

I think its easier for musicians to enjoy the dead for what they are, whereas someone who knows nothing about music might need a little altering of there mood to understand all the jamming/soloing.

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Poster: jerrys beard Date: Jun 8, 2010 10:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Seems like there is a fairly consistent trend here..those of us who partook in psychedelics found it enhanced the Dead experience...those who didn't noticed no difference. That's how I earned the name Mr. Obvious!

Growing up in the Bay Area in the late 60's I started smoking weed at 14 and taking LSD, mescaline at 14. It influenced my choice of music, probably more than my specific choice of the Dead. There were other bands that became favorites as a result...The Doors, Moody Blues, Blue Cheer, Moby Grape and the like. However, the Dead became my personal "house band" during trips, something I knew would always complement or enhance the experience.

When you start early, you either stop early or become a burn out, so by 21 I was sober and have remained so (I'm 55 now). My understanding and appreciation of the Dead has increased over the years, not decreased. But it is hard to attribute that to taking or not taking drugs. Instead, it has to do with expanding musical horizons. Listening to Miles Davis, Coltrane, jazz in general, Leonard Cohen, Joni Mitchell, CSNY, Hot Tuna...the list could go on for pages. The more I listened, the greater my appreciation and understanding for the musicianship and variety of the Dead.

Drugs drew me to the Dead, but it is impossible to prove a negative...would I still listen to them every day if I hadn't had that experience? I would like to think so, but who knows.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Jun 8, 2010 12:28pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

"Seems like there is a fairly consistent trend here..those of us who partook in psychedelics found it enhanced the Dead experience...those who didn't noticed no difference. That's how I earned the name Mr. Obvious!"

LOL, I know what you mean, yet there *is* something ... awry with the logic here ...

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jun 8, 2010 12:56pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Hmmmm.. you mean if you didn't, you wouldn't, would you? Don't you?

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Poster: jerrys beard Date: Jun 8, 2010 1:02pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Exactly!

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Poster: gratefuldiver Date: Jun 9, 2010 3:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Aside from the humorous quips, there is a pervasive theme of "I don't do acid, 'shrooms, or pot *anymore* and I listen to the Dead everyday." The 'anymore' (OK, E.A. Poe fans jump in here with...oh, never mind) is annotated by asterisks for a reason. Personally, I cannot disassociate my love for the Grateful Dead today with my 'experiments' with psychedelics >20 years ago.

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Poster: agstwst33 Date: Jun 9, 2010 2:26pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

This question is absurd!To even ask it,it`s as if you are questioning the fact,we all went to see,hear and/or follow the one thing that brought true happiness to our hearts and that expanding the realm of perception,time and senses,while doing so,was not a learning experience.The facts are,most of us,had tried LSD well before ever hearing Jerry.And,when did you ever hear the sweet sounds from his guitar and "not"feel uplifted.I`m sure not everytime was under a blanket of lysergig acid.More or less,we took LSD to come to know ourselves and see the world the way it would be if fairies and elves ran things.To smile,be happy and to always have love in our hearts,for there were moments on tour when that would be all that you needed.To go in and see the Grateful Dead at the end of the day was" extra credit,"almost.For many nights,we stood outside and wished we were more diligent in the day at making money to get that ticket and be rewarded with overwhelming emotion,that only occured in the wheel-house that Jerry was Captain of.I love the Grateful Dead,not only,for the music,but for every person I met,for all the memories,and for always being were I could find them....on-stage,right in front of me,....."when you get confused,listen to the music play!" That`s what we did.

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Poster: robthewordsmith Date: Jun 8, 2010 8:14am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

I’ve never taken a psychedelic substance in my life. I like my coffee in the morning and a glass or two of something in the evening. That’s pretty much it.

Now, whether or not I ‘get it’ is something for me to believe in and others to simply make assumptions about. If your belief is that a certain amount of mind altering was necessary to catch up with the bus as it rolled by then that’s your belief and I’m not here to try and change that. As far as I’m concerned, Mr Garcia and his merry band simply lifted me right onboard with the music they made.

It’s always just been about the music for me. The few chances I got to see the band play live I always went to the show straight and sober because I wanted to listen to what they were doing. The ‘scene’, to be honest, has never meant that much to me.

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Poster: midnightcarousel Date: Jun 8, 2010 5:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

I personally fell in love with the dead long before ever dabbling in any mind-altering substances. I didn't "get" the true heart of the music for a while, of course, and it is possible that drugs may have provided a shortcut, but I became truly enlightened without the aid of drugs.

After having listened to the dead in altered states, I have to say that on average it doesn't really make any difference. Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's not. Too much pot and I can't pay attention long enough to be interested; too much lsd and the sonic sensations become unbearably potent and sometimes it's actually painful and unpleasant. To say "you can only truly understand" by taking these drugs is complete hogwash; what a person might be able to say is "i can only understand" - to generalize to everybody else is just narcissism.

The magic of the dead transcends substances, and regardless of its origin, it found a voice that reaches across generations and pulls us in. Drugs are just a different way of listening, but if you are truly open, it really doesn't help one bit to be dosed, and is often just as much of a distraction.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Jun 8, 2010 6:36pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Yes, in my experience, people who were tripping were frequently completely out of it, and those of us who were straight were babysitting them, which could sometimes get annoying. Pot is different. But it always seemed to me, with acid, why not do one or the other: if you're at a Grateful Dead concert, good grief, what more do you want, you hardly need any other input. A Grateful Dead concert *is* a trip.

Conversely, if you're going to trip, the music might be interesting but the contents of your own head are going to keep you very very busy, so why complicate things with music - especially when you might basically miss a great show that way.

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Poster: bluedevil Date: Jun 8, 2010 6:47pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

"too much of everything is just enough"

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Jun 8, 2010 6:52pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Well ok there's that. I was never a multitasker LOL.

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Poster: spacedface Date: Jun 8, 2010 6:51pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Once in a while
you get shown the light
in the strangest of places
if you look at it right

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Jun 8, 2010 6:50pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Tripping does not make for graceful dancing - more like ungraceful falling over folks . Well hydrated and maybe a puff is All you Need ! ( just thinking of Pig there , it's all I need ) Babysitting more then once is just enough .

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Jun 8, 2010 7:00pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Of course babysitting could be highly entertaining too, I wasn't usually complaining, but it just sometimes seemed like, you're making your own entertainment here, and did you notice there's this great band playing here tonight? and you're not going to be any help with the driving ...

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Poster: micah6vs8 Date: Jun 8, 2010 7:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

I'm thinking of SDH post , re : opening the Knick . Gonna go listen to 3 - 24 - 90 . That night had the most wild , passionate , free flowing , high energy 'dancing' I've ever seen or been part of . One big dance . Miller has a new source up.

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Poster: BataviaSparky Date: Jun 8, 2010 8:55pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Tanks to all 4 input. A thought reading this- if you are one of the 'never dosed one's, then it certainly is not your place to judge those who did and to say that they are too altered to really hear everything, at least that's how I'm taking a few of these responses.
Personally, LSD had a tendency to make me sometimes motionlessly stand in rapt attention listening to every detail of sound billowing from the stage, and I dont think it would've sounded the same or nearly as mesmerizing if was straight. That's sometimes mind you, not always. Other times I could be a "dangerous dancer" - LOOK OUT!

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Poster: JerseyMark Date: Jun 8, 2010 6:08am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

At least for me, it was first and foremost about the music.
Although I've gotten high and tripped at many shows, I also been straight at just as many and had just as much fun.

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Poster: chris in long beach Date: Jun 7, 2010 10:37pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

I don't know if I"m the best person to answer this question because I'm a latecomer. I'm 35, but didn't really get into the Grateful Dead until about 4 or 5 years ago. So I was never saw any shows or got involved in any scene.

I've never dabbled in any illegal substances. That may explain why I can't get into Dark Star or Playin in the Band :D Or why I can't listen to complete shows.

Hmm, so maybe you have to be doped up to get into the long jams?

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Poster: snori Date: Jun 8, 2010 1:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

'Q. What did the Deadhead who'd run out of drugs say ?
A. What's that horrible noise !' Keith Richards quote, but he's hardly in a position to criticise.

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Poster: AltheaRose Date: Jun 8, 2010 8:01am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

I've read or seen interviews with band members where they tell the same joke. ("What did the Deadhead say when the drugs ran out?" "This music sucks!") So they definitely had a sense of humor about that.

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Poster: ringolevio Date: Jun 8, 2010 5:19am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Yeah, coming from Keith Richards, that's rich.

No, drugs aren't necessary. You could make the opposite case from me. It's been probably 20 years since I indulged in anything stronger than wine and beer (not counting coffee I guess?) but I appreciate the Dead more than ever. I couldn't really deal with Dark Star at the time, but now I get it.

Hm, I think coffee works in the opposite direction ...

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Poster: ice9freak Date: Jun 8, 2010 5:33am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

I got into the Dead when I was very young and fell in love with the music before I could get my hands on drugs (but lord knows I wanted to!). Strangely, as I got more and more into drugs, I got less into the Dead. Didn't help when Jerry died. But it's full circle now. I don't use illegal drugs anymore and I listen to Grateful Dead music every single day.

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Poster: Dudley Dead Date: Jun 8, 2010 7:48am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Well I never have done drugs, all my friends who did would say, " Charlie, you're weird enough without drugs, you don't need them" (seriously!) . It is often asumed that I am an acidhead, by people who do not know me .I am sure I got a contact hight from all the pot, in those old indoor shows !
Some people may need that spiritual laxative , to get there , but where it takes you is already there .
Phil has an interesting, reasonable discussion, of some of this in the early part of his book . Myself I am a little skeptical of some of the claims , made by some of the members of the psychedelic lobby . I think some clearheaded cold water, is helpful sometimes , when looking at some of the more extravagant statements of Deadheads about the band . But I do like the most "on drugs" parts of the Dead ( despite sounding a little too critical in the drums>space comments) . I always got a smile watching the blank looks of incomprehension, during these parts of the concert, by the "guy takes his date to the Dead show" ("hey, I like American Beauty") sort of audience member .
I have always like pretty "out there" music ( it is interesting that some of the most out music by "rock" musicians , Zappa,& Beefheart ,where my no users )
, far more so that most of my user friends, usually .
As a non user I will say this, I always would rather be around people high on pot and acid, than a bunch of drunks .

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Poster: Mandojammer Date: Jun 8, 2010 11:45am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead



On target. A couple of years ago, my son and I made the trip from Va Beach to Asheville to catch a 2 night run of the String Cheese Incident. We were in line waiting to get in - there were 4 guys in line in front of us all dosed up but they were very pleasant company and the conversation was interesting to say the least. Contrast that with the girl behind us who was so drunk she passed out in line. Her boyfriend was so drunk he rolled her to the side of the building and got back in line intending to still go in and see the show. Where he was promptly removed by the police to take care of her.

My son's wise beyond his years observation? "Why would anyone ever get so wasted they couldn't even get into to see the band they like perform?"

I suppose that leaves some wiggle room to get a little wasted and still get in to see the show.....

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Poster: Dudley Dead Date: Jun 8, 2010 11:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

I don't mind people having a good time, but alcohol, makes people loud, and obnoxious . To this day how many liquored up knuckle head is immortalizes on tape . I remember a show , think late 80's at Irvine, the band was in a pretty good ( for the era ) Other One . This not bad looking girl with beer breath, decides she wants to talk (yell) to me, making it hard to enjoy the song . ( of course where is she when is she when the concert is over !
Most people smoking pot, shut the fuck up ! (not always , I know ) .

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Poster: clashcity Date: Jun 8, 2010 6:49am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

I firmly believe that without experience with psychedelics you'd never truly "get it".

That is not to say that it is impossible, but all those cosmic tumblers fell into place when you combine them.

The band's own rise is a attributed to the stuff.

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Poster: fireeagle Date: Jun 8, 2010 10:52am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

I firmly believe that without experience with psychedelics you'd never truly "get it".



AMEN

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jun 8, 2010 7:35am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

"...but all those cosmic tumblers fell into place when you combine them."

that is true imho. I would be curious to know if I would like the music as much if I had never experienced the "combination." I don't do any substances now (excepting caffeine and nicotine), but located within my consciousness is the memory of the combination when I listen to the music sober.

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Poster: clashcity Date: Jun 8, 2010 12:45pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

I wonder this as well. But really what would suck is to find out that you don't. Especially with the high level of appreciation we've achieved. Talk about a bummer!

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Poster: direwolf0701 Date: Jun 8, 2010 7:37pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

would be a bummer indeed, but would be damn funny to say to my wife "hey! they actually DO suck!"

:)

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Poster: snow_and_rain Date: Jun 8, 2010 7:25am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

I agree. Not needed to like the band, clearly, but necessary if you truly want to understand where the music comes from.

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Poster: Jim F Date: Jun 8, 2010 12:12am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: drugs and the dead

Absolutely not. You don't need drugs at all to enjoy the music. I particularily love the longer free form jamming stuff, without any chemical aids. In fact, that's really all I listen to nowdays. I don't listen to much of the shorter stuff/first sets much anymore.

That said, I think some music that's out there nowdays, you probably NEED drugs to be able to even tolerate it. Drugs are the only explanation I can think of for some of the crap people like. haha

Great book, btw. It does get rather depressing towards the end. Those interviews were conducted not long after Jerry's passing, and it's pretty evident. I would love to see that same type of book attempted today. No amount of time could take away from the sad facts of the end of Jerry's life and the general deterioration of both Jerry and the band, but I imagine the distance between then and now would make for a slightly different book.